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Tag Archives: Tamil origins

Im a Agamudayar/Arcot Mudaliar / Tuluva vellala, and so I dont know if my ancestors came here from gujarat with agastiyar or if my ancestors have been here for ever way before agastiyar came here.


Coz it is believed that agasityar brought vellalas down from north and that they are called velir and that they are the same / origins/ancestors of vellalar people


The story of the southern migration of the Velir from Dvaraka under the leadership
of Agastya is narrated by Naccinarkkiniyar in his commentary on Tolkappiyam
(payiram ; Porul.34). According to this legend, the gods congregated on Mount Meru
as a result of which the earth tilted, lowering Meru and raising the southern quarter.
The gods thereupon decided that Agastya was the best person to remedy this situation
and requested him to proceed to the South. Agastya agreed and, on his way, visited
‘Tuvarapati’ (Dvaraka) and led the descendants of netu-muti-annal (Visnu or Krsna)
including ‘eighteen kings, eighteen families of the Velir and the Aruvalar’ to the
south, where they settled down ‘clearing the forests and cultivating the land’.

This migration of agasityar is dated at anywhere between 1000 bc to 300 BC –  tolkappiyar who was a contemporary/shishyan of agastiyar wrote tolkappiyam which is dated between 300 and 10th century bc.

Now the argument goes that there were people living in Tamil nadu and practicing agriculture from around 1500 BC ( Adichanallur artifacts). In sanga ilakkiyam it is said that marutha nilam is full of vellalar chieftans who served the chera/chola/pandya kings. It is believed that the velirs are from the agastyar gujarat migration and chera/chola/pandyas are from thevar stock. It is also said that the mukkulathor stock are here all along, wayy before the gujaratis came here.


My question is why should it be that the Thevars should be of a different stck from the gujarati migrants??? It is understood that velir are landed gentry (land owning rich guys) but also involved in wars,governance etc as needed.Whereas the primary thing/occupation of thevars are policing/ruling and being a soldier. They could have very well been from the same stock of 18 kings,18 velirs and 18 aruvalars from gujarat. Thevars could have been from the 18 kings, or some velirs might have taken up servai/agam padiyar profession. But bottom line is even Thevars could be from gujarat.

What explains the neolithic activity Before agstiyar came here??? neolithic activity was all over india -from 7000 BC  in indus valley, some where around 6000 bc in Kerala (as it was easier to move down the west coast and it took time to come to TN at adichanallur at around 1800 bc. Before Agastiyar came here, there were Nagas and yakkhas who were here. Not speaking tamil but a different lingo. Post-Agastiyar people like the tamil cholas defeated and converted these earlier people of Tamil nadu to speak tamil. Before Agastiyar came down, no one spoke Tamil, but they spoke other languages. Even in srilanka, there were SInhalese existing long before tamils came. Ellalan – the forst ever chola was a migrant to srilanka and was considered an invader from tamil country bu the sinhalese. SO sinhalese( from Indian/bengali/oriya ancestry) were there first.  Before agasityar came down, ravanan who was a north indian born in UP went there to defeat his brother Kuberan/vaisravanan. SO there were other people living in patches/pockets in this region down south before Agastiyar n his companions came in, but they did not speak Tamil.

So thse chera/chola/pandya stock are all tamil people who converted the others, cleared forests to make it cultivable land across Tamil nadu. So it is possible that chera chola pandyas also belong to the stock from gujarat. The velir king irunkovel says he is from gujarat and he belongs to ayar kulam ( also called yadavargal/yadavas) and that he was 49th generation from a gujarati king .  Some velirs like paari/poori etc who became strong enough became kings and fought with CHera/chola/pandya, but it doesnt mean that CH/CHo/Pan are from diff stock.  Bottom line vellalars and agamudayars/marvars/kallars etc were only Profeesions and not distinct ancestry. Even nadars/SCs/MBC and others could have been from the Aruvalars stock or a group of people who lost dominance/power because of the profession they took up.Although sengunthars waved, because they became powerful enough and participated in wars/administration became mudaliars.

“Mella maruvi vellalar aanare” – imo just refers to a change in profession by purchasing land and doing farming and not  that they became of a higher class.  If thevar stock are the kings and rulers, how can they go up the ladder by becoming farmers. Most thevar stock who are not kings but soldiers may have decided to take up farming, thats all.

To re-iterate, I think  Mukkulathors/Velirs /yadavs etc etc belong to the same group that came along with Agastiyar. Befroe Agastiyar there was no tamil, only nagas ,yakkhas and others who spoke a different language altogether. The leadership of agastiyar created the Tamils and tamil people. No groups/clans here can trace anything of their ancestry via the Tamil Sangam literature before Agastiyar.

We are not some Mixed race people of many migrant invaders. We vellalrs/mukkkulathors and some others belong to the same stock that came along with agasityar is my guess. Theremight be some groups who trace their ancestry to nagas/yakkhas and some other non-tamil earlier groups. But the above groups imo are from the post agastiyar stock. Not talking about the Naicker telugu stock who came later or some other smaller invasions like gowdas etc. So thevars/Mukkulathor may also be from the stock brought down by agastiyar. No evidence in literature/archaeology to indicate otherwise.No evidence to indicate A tamil speaking people here in TN before Agstiyar. Origin of Tamil, todays tamil people and Mukkulathors goes back to Agastiyars migration to South and nothing before that.

If you go through mu other blogs and have a little brain, you may realise why not being an old tribe or a mix of many invading groups makes you a more successful group as a whole from an existential perspective

some people might find the above point that there was no proper tamil society before agastiar as absurd for the reason that in sangam literature there are already talks of 49 villages , ch,cho,pan kings and VELIR people as chieftans in those villages etc. If tolkappiyar was  in second sangam,  only little time between the arrival of agastiyar and the vast tamil society described in tamil sangam literature exists, andso this vast expansion of society in less time doesnt seem plausible. But the same argument makes it absurd that velirs who came from gujarat became chieftans of every single territory in tamil society. So if the so called pure vellalas say they r from gujarat, even the thevars,yadavs etc are most likely to be from gujarat.

I am equally comfortable with the fact that a few people from kerala came down to adichanallur to be the first neolithic people of tamil nadu. Without neolithic people n society, there are no thevars or kallar,maravar,agampadiyar or servai professions. The vellalars even in this scenario are the same stock as mukkulathors but with different profession.The above scenario makes us tamils as a whole such a successful group compared to others, if you can understand the important point in the below video.

An utterly ridiculous but popular theory is that SCs r australoid, Thevars are Dravidian-semi-australoid n that vellalars r Aryans from gujarat.

A very important perspective for us to consider.




Bottom line is compared to either keralites or kannada or telugu or north indians or anyone, tamils/vellalars as a group are more successful in terms of impactfulness or in terms of enjoying the pleasures of living – simply because we as a group were multiple tims more successful in terms of population expansion. These terms can be better understood fro my other blogs. So whenever we are at the proximity of others, we should feel happy about ourselves as we are more successful as a group(from the time of seperation from them) even though they might individually be more impactful than us or have a more pleasurable life.




Tamils and South indians are jealous of North Indians. Because North Indians are very good looking. Infact the better section ofNorth indians and Pakistanis are the hottest specimens in the world, maybe a bit of competitons from some arabs,iranians. The simple minded frigid white lepers with Ape skin( if u shave an ape it has white skin) may have the meat and primitive aggressiveness but not the physical and intellectual sensuality and flavour.   look at some samples and think about it Amisha-Patel-Hot-Photo-Gallery-6  The reason why south indians are not very attractive is there in thisw blog   The gist of it…heat fucks the skin,muscles,collagen and bones and reduces physical neoteny, and consequently intellectual neoteny required for the Attractiveness/ hotness   So we are just unlucky and I have made a case as to how being more Intelligent can make one to be intellectually more stimulating and we are intellgent and sensual as well so there is hope, if we migrate to cooler regions, consume well n have a good lifestyle or consume enouh collagen pills.   But for now, should we worry too much about how unlucky we are? and feel jealous and have a complex in front of others? Well yes anyone would worry about it, but I wanna tell you 2 points that should make you happy about who you are

1) South Indians are more Intelligent and Intelligence is a higher trait for living things than attraction This explains why Intelligence is a bigger thing to be proud of and this tells you why south Indians are more Intelligent

2) South Indians have had a better life that anyone else so far. Watch this video In brief, it is all about how well a group of people(or a group of genes) have expanded in numbers , consumed resources and Lived well in comparison with another group, since the time they seperated from their common ancestors. So we are better than africans or chinkies as they are below us in the darwinian scale. They also did not enjoy as good a life/success compared to caucasians. Cos its like this, A group of africans came out of africa(from 1000 original africans may be 10 to 20), and went to occupy asia,australia, andaman etc. Some Indian adivasi tribes are part of this group.   The second group came out of africa and went up north to europe through central asia/anatolia/phoenician route and became the cro-magnons, the first caucasians. The cro-magnon theory which states that Caucasians features might have originated/come from europe(sometime during 45000 bc – you have cave paintings in france or something.  Even going by this theory, a small number of these cro-magnon/caucasians came down to central asia and were successful in getting to 2 billion. So lets assume there were around 100 cro-magon caucasians in europe. Out of which 5 to 10 came down to central and south Asia(us) ,,,, or they came to levant first – developed neolithic revoultion in 10500 BC, and a few from levant moved to iran at 8000 BC and a few from iran moved to Indus valley in 7000 BC . The 90 % in europe had to keep fightig amongst themsleves and were able to expand only to 1 billion in strength(that too only recently, for a loong time europe was having a very low population). But the 5 to 10 people travelled to south  asia became very successful in having access to resource , expanding to a high number and having a good quality of life for thousands of years. We are actually more than 20 times successful than europeans coz we are atleast more than 20 times more succesful to iranians and the number is still higher compared to middle easterners and a lot more compared to europeans. Now there is a a lot of uncertainity with exact origins but carleton coon says Caucasoid features Highly Likely originated in Europe. Cuz, Homo sapiens had co-existed with neanderthals back from 45000 bc in both Europe and West asia. However, the kebaran culture in levant had a dis-contibuity with the previous antelian culture in west asia indicating the new arrivals in the region from europe at 20,000 bc. These people were the ancestors of the neolithic/caucasoid populations of levant/west asia starting from 10000 bc Haplogroup   Though the haplogroups cannot be 100 % about population continuity – it gives an idea, and this points to a few population fro europe be it R1a or L or H entering india from europe( haplogroups are not 100% coz 1)mutation rates and genetic drift are as significant factors as ancestry when determining the haplogroup percentages and 2) The direction of migration cannot be established for sure with percentages). Another indication of this is how varied/diverse europeans are in terms of hair,eye,skin colors,facial colors,language families and tribal origins wise. And even if caucasoid origins seems to be not in europe but in west asia, the fact of the matter is  europeans are a mixture of 3 distinct group 1) cro-magnons ( who constitute a very significant part esp with the leperish pink skinned ones ) 2) neolithic farmers – the greeksn phoenician type and 3 )Indo-europeans who entered through russia. If a single group had expanded into 900 million – thats success, but 3 groups had battled out to get to 900. So in essence the cro-magnon part is like the aboriginal part which lost territory to new invading groups.  Imagine a population of 1000 which splits into 2 groups A-900 and B-100.Now B migrates to another newer region with more resources and less competition and Expands into 1000. Now This group B splits into B1-900 and B2-100 Imagine B2 seperates and expands into 1000 and consequently 10 times more successful than B1. But if B2 mixes with A, the now available groups are B1 – 900 and B2A – 1900. So from initial population of 1000, 90 became 900( 10 times) in B1 and remaining 910 became 1900( only 2 times). So aboriginal groups are very less successful and the group that mixed with the aboriginal group is the least successful. This is why people try portraying Indians as  aboriginal mixed. But we are not. As far as the europeans are concerned they are mixed with cro-magnon part being the aboriginal part like africans, australian aboriginees or native americans who lost territory to invading groups.Either way the caucasian population that Entered India from Iran was very successful in expanding So from iran, the last ones to enter into India through the passes n hills were the Indians who form all of todays population with the exception of mogoloid tribals who form less than 10% of population and who are still distinct ).The minute you mix with an aboriginal/less successful group you become a less successful person like the group B2A. These latest Indian cuacasians were living in Ganges/indus valleys and living well. So from may be a thousand north indians may be 5(or even less)  came down to south India and the cauvery valley civilisation started and from this 5 we expanded into the huge population we have in south india today. It is said that the Sage Agasthiyar brought down a small group of people from north, cleared the forests for agriculture, replaced adivaiss, creatd The languages and Arts(such as kalari etc). So this group consisted of vellalar chieftans, brahmins such as agasthiyar too. So all of south indinas, be it thevar,goundar, moovendar bunts, nairs, etc all came from these chieftans and they expanded to different places spoke different south indians languages assumed different titles…But the common ancestry is there from the cauvery basin civilisation. But both Tamil and Pali have the same vowels and consonants and the person who perfected the tamil grammer was a brahmin. Tamil may have exited longer than tholkappiyam, kumai kandam etc for much longer like 1000 years even before agastiyar, but the thing is we are very mcuh closely related to north indians and were part of the same group for a long time before we branched out.Its like Indians brnched out from europeans some 35000 years back and the relative seperation between north and south Indans is samll. Besides the velir/vellalar and may be brahmin population share more recent ancestry with the north indians. But some brahmins like to associate them selves with north indians and call them as aryans. For them who consider themselves later arrivals, i tell you – the later arrival into south india are not as successful as the first ones to enter here. Coz the first ones that entered here will ahve faced less competition and expanded in number easily. And I say because south Indinas are the most recent migrators, they are atleast 5 times more successful than collective north indians from whom they seperated -by applying the logic that i have been applying throughout right from europe. So if brahmins and others claim that they are recent migrants to south, it means they are less successful than other south indians.

Lets say there were originally 100x northies, out of which 5x seperated and became south indians. Now south indians increase in number to 100x and north indians expand to 400x. AT this point SI are 5 times more successful than NI. If brahmins are a second wave of migration from North and they consitute only around 3x now, only 0.6 x should have migrated to equal the 5 times more success of original south indians. So it means only 0.6/4 = 0.15 % started off from north the second time – which means we are giving them a lineancy for them of over 30 times by saying that 5% started of the first time. But this is not the case so the original South indians are certainly more successful

But lets get back to South Indinas vs Europeans – the first caucasians

The most important facts to consider are the Timeline of neolithic revolutions happening. According to the Paleolithic continuity theory, the european caucasians are a continuity of the Cro-magnon/modern human mix that happened in Europe who left cave painting dating back to some 35000/42000 bc. After the ice -age, a few-lets say 25% of these european ones with the caucasoid features came down and formed neolithic revolution in north of arab(Levant). You can see that some arabians still look like sudanese africans with sharp features and white skin – from the shape of their eyes and the ridges on their face. And these guys were more successful than the hunter gatherers that stayed back in europe in terms of having good quality of life and expanding in numbers. The start of neloithic revolution in levant is at 10500 bc. From some of these levant, some 10 % migrated east into iran and started the neolithic practices there in 8000 bc. So these 10 % who migrated and explored new land were more succesful in having acces to new resource and expanding compared to the ones who stagnated in levant. And from the ones in iran a 10% migrated eastwards into the most resourceful India ( had a historic world’s share of GDP between 35-40 % for thousands and thousands of years, which reduced to 30% in 1000 Ad and reduced to 1% in 1940s). I’d assume not more than 5-10% would migrate away from well settled neolithic colonies in  search of uncertainity. And this 10% now has expanded into the 2 billion plus in indo-pakistan,banglades, srilanka,maldives and a bunch of other places. So Indians have been a lot more succesful than iranians. And the first signs of neolithic practices in India starts in 7000 BC. Again from north india, a handful of them came down to south india and formed neolithic civilisation in the south (about 2000 BC in Tamil nadu/cauvery area). Look up all those facts about neolithic dates if you want. So Southies are the lastest and the more succesful ones. We southies have also spread bak to north india via the rashtrakuta dynasty and Chola conquest of bengal, and we also went and got mixed in many places in SE asia – cambodi,other srivijaya empires etc. Compared to this, the europeans have had a cold, war-prone and frugal existence so far. Just a bonus video here So south Indians  have common ancestors and  genetic success wise – from our immediate ancestors to our really long back ancestors have always had it good and successful in expanding their genes. Comparing south Indians vs north indians – south Indians have becoam more successful in expanding. And Indians compared to iran, or rest of the world were also very successful in expanding. Only in the last 500-600 years we have the Turcic-Mongoloid Islamic invaders such as Mughals, sultanate,Lodis, etc contributing a small percent to our gene pool   SO its okay if north indians come down to our cities and become more richer businessmen and make us feel jealouss with their looks. Maybe from now on south indians will reduce in poupulation but still our offsprings irrespective of how they get mixed up in the future, we can right now say that the population has entered south india(baring the adivasis) have had the best success in expansion/existence so far despite the possibility of us reducing in number slighly in the future.  Even the whites in americas and australia who came from the few in europe..are not made of genes of a single succesful group but a mixture of sevral groups who were ones losers. We can take pride that we have existed so well so far, our genes have come from a small and succesful group who came down south from north india – so maybe we do not have the diversity leading to not so great looks, but we are what we are now and we have to be really happy of the success of this group. We can be happy about it, not be jealous of others hence and just try to be the best we can…Dont be anxious, even if you are having to stare and feel jealous about good looking people from other places. Just be proud, confident and happy about who you are and have a good life. Do read some of the other blogs here to find out more about our interesting accomplishments and the impact we have had. Since we are better specimen with potential to develop good looks if we live in a cooler place with healthy lifestyle, we should act like we are the superior ones when we are in the midst of others. We currently act like we are below others, but this perception should change and realise why truely we are the superior ones. And we must also change out behavior – we shouldnt be simple,humble, mature,down to earth and nice.

The takeaway for tamils/south indians should be …wherever you go, constantly believe that you have been the most successful group, and that you are the most intelligent group or that you as an individual are more intelligent and therefore more superior. But have this confidence/pride arrogance at the back of you head and with this you can give the subtle – holier than thou look to anyone you meet and look through their phony act. But dont be a snob. In order to have a nicer/neotenous face one must be playful and forth coming. When you walk into clubs or nicer establishments, the thing that matters the most initally is looks. And realise that more intelligent people can be more engaging and attractive ( if you are not disadvantaged with your physical features). So you gotta maintain an attitude – thats a combination of a belief in your superiority at the same time being fun.


some bonus videos. These are very important points the ones you must re-read again and again to absolutely comprehend everything, then the way you see things will drastically change.